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Thu, Nov. 1st, 2012, 05:28 pm
[lj] Credit where credit is due

A lot of people are complaining that LJ Never Listens. Actually, they are listening. The post to news followed the suggestion/outcry to that effect on lj_releases. The first point on the clarification post to lj_releases was that while the beta had infinite scroll, making that optional was the first item on the to-do-before-launch list. The second point concerned adding custom controls for readability and accessibility.

LJ -- SUP -- is listening. They aren't getting everything right, and they aren't giving users everything users have demanded, but you know, "listening" doesn't mean "conceding all points immediately."

I'd remind everyone that SUP is not 6A. While SUP has done plenty of boneheaded things of their own, the really egregious contempt for users was shown by past management, not these guys. I keep hearing people talk about livejournal-the-company as if it was one continuous entity. It hasn't been.

There is this hellacious feedback loop going on right now where users have been freshly outraged (not unreasonably), and add their outrage to their memories of helplessness to get the PTB at LJ to take their outrage seriously. This leads to the users addressing the LJ team who have never done users wrong with, "You always do this to me!" This doesn't make the human beings behind the corporate identity want to communicate with you. They likely (not unreasonably) think, "Holy @#%*! It doesn't matter how reasonably we behave, a wave of unreasoning rage and hatred will fill our inboxes: why bother trying."

Except they are still trying. The cry went out, FOR THE LOVE OF LITTLE APPLES, PLEASE JUST COMMUNICATE WITH US, and so... they are! Could we not punish them for moving in the right direction?

I don't mean not arguing with them: by all means, argue with them. I don't mean not disagreeing with them: by all means, disagree with them. I don't mean not expressing strong emotion with them: by all means, let them know how upset you are with their designs (pun intended).

I mean only this: don't saddle them with the sins of their fathers. These are not the dicks who committed Strikethrough. These are not the people who brought ads to LJ. By all means, hold them accountable for what they do. Do not hold them accountable for what others before them did.

Because no human being handles the unfairness of being held responsible for someone else's wrong gracefully.

So knock it off with "LJ never listens." Try "LJ has had a terrible history of listening to us in the past. You can do better. Please listen to us now. We care about LJ and want to see it succeed, and we hate what you're doing, and since we're part of the demographic you need to please, you'd probably better pay attention to our opinion."

And knock it off the with "buts", as in, "Thank you for clarifying, but it's not good enough..." You can say that without the "but": "Thank you for clarifying. That's very helpful. Now that I have basis to discuss your plans, I want to let you know how much I hate that..." It's not a "but" statement -- it doesn't sit in contradiction of the "thank you" -- it's an "and" statement: "Thank you for fixing problem #1 and problems #2 through #46 still exist."

The only place that "but" of contradiction makes rhetorical sense is in the latent, imaginary argument in one's head as to whether one is justified in being angry with or hating LJ. "Your clarification is a righteous behavior but insufficient to compensate, in my assessment of how much you suck, for all the other crap you've done." Or more concisely, "Yeah, but LJ still sucks for the following reason", as if the matter of debate isn't whether what LJ has done sucks, but whether LJ itself (or its staff) suck. The "but" betrays that you're really, in your heart, arguing the case of Why LJ Sucks, not What LJ Is Screwing Up This Time.

Unless you really believe that LJ-the-corporate-entity is emotionally a 10yo girl which will respond to "You suck" by coming to you, crushed, pleading that you tell her how to get back in your good graces (a nice fantasy, yes), you have to grant that telling LJ "You Suck" is not likely to get the result you want. (You are totally within your rights to commiserate with other users as to Why LJ Sucks. It's in registering your disapproval with LJ that I am addressing efficacy.)

Life for everyone will be easier if we focus on telling LJ that things its done suck (or things it might do would suck), than telling LJ that it sucks. For one thing, the former is more specific and can lead to LJ, the corporate entity and the people constituting it, going, "Oh! Right! We should totally post that to news", e.g. Whereas the latter mostly results in a shirty, "Well, what do you want me to do about that?" (even if only articulated in the recipients' heads[*].)

[* I have a great story about that. Some other time.]

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 01:53 am (UTC)
m_danson

That's good to know. I'll pass on my problem with using it on Windows XP.
(Screened comment)

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 02:27 am (UTC)
siderea

You're not getting it. There is no "however", either, which is just a synonym for "but". There are many other posts in this journal alone where you can commiserate with me about How Much LJ Sucks. You may not do that on this post.
(Screened comment)

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 04:38 am (UTC)
siderea

But evidently you do!

Since you hare so much spare time, why don't you make yourself useful and find out why a 5px top margin for Entry Page divs of class='dwexpcomment' was hard coded into the HTML of DW's S2 Core?

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 06:39 pm (UTC)
alierak

This class was added fairly recently via bug 4387, but merely preserved a hardcoded 5px top margin that predates the inception of DW. It entered the DW codebase via import of LJ R26.1 in 2008, was copied from core1 to core2 along the way, etc.

In LJ, you can still find it here, in EntryPage::print_comment (where it now appears twice because of the alternate codepath for "showspam"). Its presence in S2 actually dates from this commit, which appears to have introduced comment handling to S2.

I tried looking at earlier S1 styles, but didn't see anything obviously analogous there. Sorry I couldn't make myself useful.

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 03:25 am (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

Hello, jumping here from that some post on lj_release. Thank you for trying to be a Voice of Reason in the middle of all hell.

I especially hate it how people are screaming to poor astronewt even if they are not screaming AT her - and she is the person who requested that the infinite scroll be made optional, and generally the staff member who communicates best with the user base, from what I've seen.

I've had enough hell to deal with on my own Friends Page in the last couple of days, and in spite of all my efforts to clear the misunderstandings, I'm afraid some of my people will switch entirely to Dreamwidth this time and I'll have to either lose them or create one more online account. *sigh*

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 04:42 am (UTC)
siderea

You're welcome. You know, creating one more online account is not the worst of all fates. :)

I have my own nav links on my LJ style, so I include a link to my DW reading page. Myself, since I already check multiple LJ friends pages, it's not a big deal to me to also check one at DW.

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 04:46 pm (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

I already have one social network too many, and that's Google+. I either forget to look at my feed there or don't have the time even for my most important Circles - and some of my LJ people have already half-migrated there, in addition to the people I originally met there.

But if it's only part of my LJ crowd, I'll probably manage it once I figure out how that site works. The other problem is that my circle gets split in different places and we can't all have discussions in the same place anymore.

I wonder if there will come a time when I'll be only left with the Russians on my Friends Page here, no kidding. Well, then I'll be finally forced to learn to write properly in Russian. :)

Fri, Nov. 2nd, 2012 10:55 pm (UTC)
siderea

I already have one social network too many, and that's Google+

Hahah, yeah, I've lost a lot of friends to G+, but I'm not following them.

But if it's only part of my LJ crowd, I'll probably manage it once I figure out how that site works.

If it's any reassurance, if you know LJ, you pretty much know DW. I think there's even a guide for emigrees, explaining DW for LJers. There's not much to know, honestly. The big thing is Project WTF: they split Putting Someone On Your Friends Page So You Can Read Their Stuff ("Subscribing" to someone on your "Reading Page") and Giving People Permission To Read Your Locked Posts ("Granting Access" to someone in your "Circles").

The other problem is that my circle gets split in different places and we can't all have discussions in the same place anymore.

Yeah, that is a bummer. A lot of my friends who have moved to DW use the cross poster, which automatically posts to LJ whatever you post on DW, so your journal exists in parallel on both sites; many use the setting which causes the LJ version of a post to be no-comments, with a footer linking people to the DW version and telling them to comment there. None of this solves the G+ problem (or the FB problem, or the Tumblr problem, or...). Also, this is a security/ethics issue for one's friends.

Well, then I'll be finally forced to learn to write properly in Russian. :)

Somebody in lj_releases actually responded to the complaint that LJ was informing Russian speakers but not English speakers, with the retort, "Learn Russian!" Yeah, I'll totally get right on that. :)

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 01:21 am (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

*confused about the security issue* So who asks to log in as you where?

Some of my own friends crosspost from DW already (and phew, the one I was most afraid of entirely losing to DW promised to keep crossposting). My fear is that some of them will either became so angry that they'll stop crossposting - or worse, that crossposting will become impossible at some point in the future. I guess I'd better set up a DW account soon, just in case.

I'm very active on FB, but it's primarily my activist platform. I never post anything really personal on my wall/Timeline/whatever they decide to call it tomorrow because I just don't trust that site, no matter what privacy options they offer. This is one of my problems with my old LJ friends who migrated entirely to FB. The other problems is that they just stop being bloggers under the influence of FB.

That person who replied "Learn Russian!" needs to be reminded that LJ is not the Soviet Union (which no longer exists anyway).

I'm both lucky and unlucky in having a Slavic native language: that makes learning to understand Russian easier, but OMG learning to speak and write in a language that is so similar yet so different... here are some of my reports of the earlier stages of my struggles with Russian:
http://tilia-tomentosa.livejournal.com/287958.html
http://tilia-tomentosa.livejournal.com/297814.html

Edited at 2012-11-03 01:24 am (UTC)

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 03:03 am (UTC)
siderea

*confused about the security issue* So who asks to log in as you where?

The DW crossposter cannot crosspost (nor the importer import) unless you allow it to log in as you at LJ. How else would it be able to post to your LJ, or fetch your private and friends locked posts from LJ to DW? So you have to give it your username and password at LJ, for it to do that.

I guess I'd better set up a DW account soon, just in case.

At the very least, grab your username of choice while they have free signups. Usually they require an invite code (for a free account) or payment, but right now, they are having open signups for free accounts.

The other problems is that they just stop being bloggers under the influence of FB.

Yeah. :(

That person who replied "Learn Russian!" needs to be reminded that LJ is not the Soviet Union (which no longer exists anyway).

True, though I am cosmopolitan enough to be amused by the irony of an English-speaker (and presumed American) being served a dish of that particular bad attitude.

here are some of my reports of the earlier stages of my struggles with Russian

Worse than Latin's case system? That's saying something. And learning pronouns is the worst for me. The shorter the word, the less likely I'm going to remember it.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 04:52 am (UTC)
en_ki

To treat your "how else" as though it were not rhetorical: LJ could offer access with (instead of your main password) limited, revocable authentication tokens like OAuth, which of course would require some work on their side. That would get LJ about 1/4 of the way to being Elsejournal, not that I think that's an objective of theirs.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 05:52 am (UTC)
siderea

Speaking of which, OAuth 2.0 actually came out at the end of July (I may be the last kid on the block to learn this). I am pleasantly surprised, in that the last OAuth gossip I heard was that Something Bad had happened to the project and it was eaten by a grue or something.

Mon, Nov. 5th, 2012 12:25 am (UTC)
en_ki

The lead author left the standard committee in a huff because he felt the corporate sponsors were making a hash of it (http://hueniverse.com/2012/07/oauth-2-0-and-the-road-to-hell/). Said big corporations are still doing it: e.g., Google deprecated OAuth 1 and AuthSub in favor of OAuth 2 in April.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 12:13 pm (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

A crazy idea: what if I want to repost the other way round, from LJ to DW?

(I know nothing about how this could possibly work technically.)

It seems that even if my people who just migrated to DW still crosspost to LJ, some of them will no longer read their Friends Pages here after the Big Change, so I'll have to get my journal across to them somehow. I'm afraid asking them to bookmark my journal won't be the best idea.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 09:02 pm (UTC)
siderea

A crazy idea: what if I want to repost the other way round, from LJ to DW?

LJ doesn't have a crossposter for DW.

A bit of history: DW was founded by some exLJ employees who took the (freely available) edition of LJ's server software, and went off to found their own competing company. Their motivation/business plan was a combination of (1) provide a refuge for a large class LJ users which LJ was antagonizing and (2) do LJ up right, fixing all the things they didn't like about how LJ worked.

Since they knew that their entire customer base was entrenched LJ users, they knew that they had to make moving to DW very, very, very, very easy and as painless as humanly possible. One part of doing that was making it possible for DW users to continue their LJ social lives: so in their work on the server code, they built the crossposter right into DW.

LJ never built a reciprocal crossposter, because LJ was never interested in making it easy for LJ users to participate in DW. LJ wasn't interested in poaching DW's users; to the contrary, LJ might have been, at one point (during 6A's negotiations to sell LJ to the present owners, SUP) highly motivated to get undesirable users to move to DW, or at least off of LJ, and not come back.

Ironically, LJ has since built a crossposter of its own. It only works with three services: FB, Twitter, and vKontakte.

So, speaking with my web programmer hat on, there are some options for crossposting in a limited sense from LJ to DW. Or more accurately, it's possible to simultaneously post to both LJ and DW from a third party. You can do this securely with Post By Email. The limitation is that once you've posted via email, the two posts are completely separate; the DW crossposter actually is much superior in that it coordinates the two posts, updating the LJ version with any changes you make to the DW version.

It is theoretically possible for someone to built a third-party app which provides this service from the user's desktop. There are desktop posting apps, presumably they could manage this. I don't know if this has been done.

I did look into building a browser tool (technically a greasemonkey script for Firefox) to provide crossposter functionality. Unfortunately, my professional commitments got in the way of pursuing a project of that scope.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 09:24 pm (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

Thank you for all the explanations. :)

I found out that Dreamwidth is a refuge for voluntary or exiled LJ emigrants from a long time ago, although I wasn't here yet when the whole thing started. Merely looking at the Dreamwidth FAQs is very telling: some of them specifically target people who are fresh from LJ.

I don't think I'd object to my entries here and there being separate even if it means doing the same editing to both places now and then. I write my most important entries on Word files first anyway because it's easier not to accidentally lose my drafts that way, so i could live with copy-pasting the same text (and some HTML to go with it if necessary) to both places. But I have to figure out what I want to post there at all first. *sigh* And OMG nobody there would be able to read those little summaries in Russian that I sometimes insert in my entries here for the Russians who don't understand English... yes, I'm very complicated. :)

Mon, Nov. 5th, 2012 06:54 pm (UTC)
onyxlynx.blogspot.nl

There are in fact Russian writers on Dreamwidth--I just pulled up the first one from the Latest Things (http://www.dreamwidth.org/latest) page (http://saaratnefesh.dreamwidth.org), but there are others. Finding them is probably the trick. Maybe there's a community.

(I studied Russian a long time ago, and a lot has gotten forgotten.)

Mon, Nov. 5th, 2012 07:26 pm (UTC)
siderea

Welcome, blogspotter! (Did I go viral or something? I don't recognize your handle.)

Edited at 2012-11-05 07:26 pm (UTC)

Tue, Nov. 6th, 2012 04:54 am (UTC)
onyxlynx.blogspot.nl

I got here via Andrew Ducker's linkspam (http://andrewducker.dreamwidth.org/2791268.html); he's on my Network (you call it Friend's Friends) page at Dreamwidth. (I have a Dreamwidth account; the OpenID is an artifact of commenting in 2008, and no, I'm not Dutch, and I don't know why the .nl is there instead of .com, although it goes to the same place.)

I suspect one is supposed to state one's departure point; I just never remember.

Tue, Nov. 6th, 2012 05:34 am (UTC)
siderea

Ah! Apparently I have. Go fig.

Mon, Nov. 5th, 2012 08:09 pm (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

Wow, so the Russians have invaded even Dreamidth! Thank you for letting me know that. :)

I typically undertake the epic feat of writing in Russian (I'm Bulgarian myself) for those Russians on my own Friends List here who don't understand English. Now do I have to add some other Russians on Dreamwidth to have somebody to appreciate my efforts (or pedantically correct my mistakes) there too? *is very amused with the idea*

(Well, at least you know that there is nothing scary or mysterious about the Cyrillic alphabet.)

Tue, Nov. 6th, 2012 05:10 am (UTC)
onyxlynx.blogspot.nl

Oh, you don't have to, but I thought you should know the opportunity is there. Should you want to and all.

Is there supposed to be something scary or mysterious about Cyrillic? It's largely derived from the Greek alphabet, and that's so scary that people actually join fraternities. ;-)

(I just figure that everything I "know" about Bulgarians, except for the capital being Sofia, is Wrong, so.)

Tue, Nov. 6th, 2012 11:17 am (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the information. Now I'm curious what kind of Russians would Dreamwidth attract and why, since LJ is THE blogging site in Russia. The problem is that I'm already trying to read more Russian than I can manage at this stage here on LJ and on a few other places. Not to mention the ordeal of struggling to actually communicate in Russian. :)

The Roman alphabet is also derived from some old version of the Greek alphabet (or at least so I was told at university), but nobody remembers that.

I come across native speakers of English who find the Cyrillic mysterious and/or scary all the time, and not only on LJ. There are even people who say "I can't read in the Cyrillic" instead of "I can't read in Russian" when they complain that some important information here is published in Russian only.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 09:07 pm (UTC)
siderea

It seems that even if my people who just migrated to DW still crosspost to LJ, some of them will no longer read their Friends Pages here after the Big Change, so I'll have to get my journal across to them somehow. I'm afraid asking them to bookmark my journal won't be the best idea.

The option many people forget is asking them to subscribe to email notifications of you posting to your journal.

Also, if you are unconcerned about locked posts, DW has the same RSS feed capabilities as LJ, and your DW friends would be able to follow your public posts via DW. However, you would have no authority over that feed on DW or the comments in it. So, for instance, if someone was spamming the feed or verbally abusing your friends, you wouldn't be able to ban them or screen their comments or do any other moderator stuff. Also, you would have to take some step to get comments on the feed mailed to you.

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 09:10 pm (UTC)
siderea

not that I think that's an objective of theirs.

Well, yes. I've been trying to figure out some argument to make to LJ to convince them that there is a positive ROI for implementing OAuth, and I'm coming up with bubkes. :/

Sun, Nov. 4th, 2012 12:35 am (UTC)
fiddlingfrog

It looks like LJ has some implementation of OAuth, at least partly to enable identity accounts like Facebook, Twitter, and Google to login. My Perl is pretty shaky (Practically non-existant, really. I only recognize Perl because S2 shares a lot of syntax.) so I'm unsure if this is what you'd need to accomplish what you want.

Anyways, I'd think the basic argument would be that implementing OAuth enables users to be able to more easily share anything they find on the web to their journal (I'm thinking sharing plugins like ShareThis or silly meme generators and the like). And adding content can only be a good thing for LJ as a company. Especially if they're halfway there on the implementation.

Sun, Nov. 4th, 2012 01:22 am (UTC)
siderea

Fascinating. And there's something in there about games.

We can't actually tell from there what all is going on -- that's just the change log, and those are pretty small tweaks, many of them just to the English of messages to the user. Does SUP release the recent LJ code anywhere? (6A was notorious for only having very old versions of the code available to the public.)

Sun, Nov. 4th, 2012 04:04 am (UTC)
fiddlingfrog

I'd bet the games being referenced were the games run in partnership with some Russian company from spring 2011 to spring 2012.

You can look through the recent (public) code here.

Sun, Nov. 4th, 2012 06:02 am (UTC)
siderea

Gracious! Yay, SUP! Thanks for pointing that out.

Sun, Nov. 4th, 2012 10:57 pm (UTC)
vvalkyri

ooh! i tend to refer to LJ as elsejournal on FB and didn't know there was such a thing as elsejournal, which explains some confusion.

Mon, Nov. 5th, 2012 04:59 am (UTC)
siderea

"elsejournal" is a term often used to refer to the ideal alternative to LJ. For a while, DW in the early stages was called "elsejournal".

Sat, Nov. 3rd, 2012 07:08 pm (UTC)
tilia_tomentosa

True, though I am cosmopolitan enough to be amused by the irony of an English-speaker (and presumed American) being served a dish of that particular bad attitude.

Oh, I understand the irony just fine. :)

As a Bulgarian, I am extremely lucky that I chose to study English at school (or to be honest left a friend to chose for me because I felt hopelessly torn between English and French myself) at a time when nobody knew that it would displace Russian as the must-know foreign language in Bulgaria.

I don't think I'm exactly a cosmopolitan, but maybe I'm a citizen of the Internet. *is amused*

Worse than Latin's case system? That's saying something. And learning pronouns is the worst for me. The shorter the word, the less likely I'm going to remember it.

I don't know if the Latin case system is really easier, or it's just that I just learned the actual logic behind it first. It just seemed easier to me to manage the functions of the cases in Latin, but I don't know how much of that I still remember now.

And oh, I did make a Dreamwidth account, and even managed to reserve the same username. Now I only have to figure out what to do with it (if anything). :)