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[religion, science] St. Augustine on ID - Sibylla Bostoniensis — LiveJournal
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Wed, Aug. 10th, 2005, 09:19 pm
[religion, science] St. Augustine on ID

Thanks to D.M. for bringing this to my attention; I went and hunted up the Latin myself:
19. 39. Plerumque enim accidit ut aliquid de terra, de coelo, de caeteris mundi huius elementis, de motu et conversione vel etiam magnitudine et intervallis siderum, de certis defectibus solis ac lunae, de circuitibus annorum et temporum, de naturis animalium, fruticum, lapidum, atque huiusmodi caeteris, etiam non christianus ita noverit, ut certissima ratione vel experientia teneat.

Turpe est autem nimis et perniciosum ac maxime cavendum, ut christianum de his rebus quasi secundum christianas Litteras loquentem, ita delirare audiat, ut, quemadmodum dicitur, toto coelo errare conspiciens, risum tenere vix possit.

Et non tam molestum est, quod errans homo deridetur, sed quod auctores nostri ab eis qui foris sunt, talia sensisse creduntur, et cum magno eorum exitio de quorum salute satagimus, tamquam indocti reprehenduntur atque respuuntur.

Cum enim quemquam de numero Christianorum in ea re quam optime norunt, errare comprehenderint, et vanam sententiam suam de nostris Libris asserere; quo pacto illis Libris credituri sunt, de resurrectione mortuorum, et de spe vitae aeternae, regnoque coelorum, quando de his rebus quas iam experiri, vel indubitatis numeris percipere potuerunt, fallaciter putaverint esse conscriptos?

Quid enim molestiae tristitiaeque ingerant prudentibus fratribus temerarii praesumptores, satis dici non potest, cum si quando de prava et falsa opinatione sua reprehendi, et convinci coeperint ab eis qui nostrorum Librorum auctoritate non tenentur, ad defendendum id quod levissima temeritate et apertissima falsitate dixerunt, eosdem Libros sanctos, unde id probent, proferre conantur, vel etiam memoriter, quae ad testimonium valere arbitrantur, multa inde verba pronuntiant, non intellegentes neque quae loquuntur, neque de quibus affirmant [1 Tim 1, 7.]

From De Genesi Ad Litteram Libri Duodecim, by St. Augustine
19. 39. Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience.

Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn.

The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although "they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion." [1 Tim 1, 7.]

From The Literal Meaning of Genesis, by St. Augustine, translated by John Hammond Taylor, S.J, in Ancient Christian Writers, vol. 41, New York: Paulist Press, 1982.


[Paragraph breaks added for legibility.]

Thu, Aug. 11th, 2005 01:29 am (UTC)
fabrisse

Much as I loathe St. Augustine for his never to be forgotten doctrines of original sin and predestination, the guy has a grade-A intellect. If more of the populist Christians were still reading their Augustine, we might not be getting into these absurd arguments over evolution.

Thu, Aug. 11th, 2005 01:37 am (UTC)
siderea

In some ways, the paragraph before it is even more interesting because of what it represents about his intellect, but this one is more legible to the logically-challenged. Right before this, he explains his intellectual approach to literalism vs. symbolism, and it brings to mind the Stephenson(?) quote about the hallmark of intelligence being comfort with ambiguity:

19. 38. Ponamus enim in eo quod scriptum est: Dixit Deus: Fiat lux; et facta est lux 58; alium sensisse lucem corporalem factam, et alium spiritalem. Esse spiritalem lucem in creatura spiritali, fides nostra non dubitat: esse autem lucem corporalem coelestem, aut etiam supra coelum, vel ante coelum, cui succedere nox potuerit, tamdiu non est contra fidem, donec veritate certissima refellatur. Quod si factum fuerit, non hoc habebat divina Scriptura, sed hoc senserat humana ignorantia. Si autem hoc verum esse certa ratio demonstraverit, adhuc incertum erit utrum hoc in illis verbis sanctorum Librorum scriptor sentiri voluerit, an aliud aliquid non minus verum. Quod si caetera contextio sermonis non hoc eum voluisse probaverit, non ideo falsum erit aliud, quod ipse intellegi voluit; sed et verum, et quod utilius cognoscatur. Si autem contextio Scripturae hoc voluisse intellegi scriptorem non repugnaverit, adhuc restabit quaerere utrum et aliud non potuit. Quod si et aliud potuisse invenerimus, incertum erit quidnam eorum ille voluerit: et utrumque sentiri voluisse, non inconvenienter creditur, si utrique sententiae certa circumstantia suffragantur.


38. Let us suppose that in explaining the words, "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and light was made," one man thinks that it was material light that was made, and another that it was spiritual. As to the actual existence of “spiritual light”65 in a spiritual creature, our faith leaves no doubt; as to the existence of material light, celestial or supercelestial, even existing before the heavens, a light which could have been followed by night, there will be nothing in such a supposition contrary to the faith until un-erring truth gives the lie to it. And if that should happen, this teaching was never in Holy Scripture but was an opinion pro-posed by man in his ignorance. On the other hand, if reason should prove that this opinion is unquestionably true, it will still be uncertain whether this sense was intended by the sacred writer when he used the words quoted above, or whether he meant something else no less true. And if the general drift of the passage shows that the sacred writer did not intend this teaching, the other, which he did intend, will not thereby be false; indeed, it will be true and more worth knowing. On the other hand, if the tenor of the words of Scripture does not militate against our taking this teaching as the mind of the writer, we shall still have to enquire whether he could not have meant something else besides. And if we find that he could have meant something else also, it will not be clear which of the two meanings he intended. And there is no difficulty if he is thought to have wished both interpretations if both are supported by clear indications in the context.


Here's a guy who clearly understand that reason has a job to do and if religion gets in it's way, it's not going to be religion that loses, in much the way that when a bicycle tangles with the commuter rail, it's not the commuter rail which loses.
(Deleted comment)

Thu, Aug. 11th, 2005 02:49 am (UTC)
fabrisse

Yes, he founded just war theory. Humble? Not a word I'd ever associate with Augustine.

I took a Ph.D. level class in St. Augustine toward my Master's degree because he founded just war theory.

War must be declared.
Non-combatants must not be involved. (Mostly meaning the clergy in later interpretation.)
Neither side may use a "super-weapon." When cannons were first developed the Pope tried to ban their use for this reason.
No looting of non-military property. In other words, your opponent's weapons cache is fair game, his women aren't.

It was quite forward thinking. My argument was that since the development of nuclear weaponry, there was no way for anyone using it not to violate rules two, three, and four.

Sun, Aug. 14th, 2005 01:06 am (UTC)
metageek: Superweapon?

What does superweapon mean in this case? One that necessarily involves noncombatants?

Sun, Aug. 21st, 2005 02:51 am (UTC)
siderea: Re: Superweapon?

Apparently yes. See new comment below.

Sun, Aug. 21st, 2005 02:50 am (UTC)
siderea

My argument was that since the development of nuclear weaponry, there was no way for anyone using it not to violate rules two, three, and four.

You'll never guess who's tending to agree with you.:
In a May 2003 interview reported by Rome’s Zenit news service, Ratzinger was asked about the justice of the Iraq War in light of the Catechism. He agreed that Just War doctrine may require revision, as Weigel and other Catholic neoconservatives have suggested—but in a more, not less, restrictive direction.

The pope [John Paul II] expressed his thought with great clarity, not only as his individual thought but as the thought of a man who is knowledgeable in the highest functions of the Catholic Church. Of course, he did not impose this position as doctrine of the Church but as the appeal of a conscience enlightened by faith. The Holy Father’s judgment is also convincing from a rational point of view: There was not sufficient reasons to unleash a war in Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war.
Emphasis mine.

Thu, Aug. 11th, 2005 01:35 am (UTC)
tangerinpenguin

Magnificent! Thanks for highlighting this.

Thu, Aug. 11th, 2005 02:18 pm (UTC)
sethg_prime

I've seen similar "if you attribute your own idiocy to God then you make our religion look bad" flames in Maimonides.

When Maimonides was flaming, a few centuries after Augustine, Aristotelian philosophy was the evolution of its day: it was intellectually compelling, a lot of people who studied it were convinced to abandon their religion, and many religious leaders, in turn, forbade their followers from studying philosophy. Maimonides, Aquinas, and Averroës argued that Aristotelian philosophy could be reconciled with traditional Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, respectively.

(Augustine, according to Wikipedia, brought some Neoplatonist ideas into Christianity; I don't know if he was just ahead of his time, or if tension over Greek philosophy was a long-running thing that just came to a head in the High Middle Ages.)

Unfortunately, the Christian, Jewish, and Islamic leaders of today who get the most press are not folks with Maimonides-class intellects. (Except maybe for the current Pope. But he's not a big fan of Aqunias.)

Sun, Aug. 21st, 2005 01:45 am (UTC)
cellio

Thank you for this.