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[politics, essay] Bacchus sepe visitans mulierum genus... - Sibylla Bostoniensis — LiveJournal
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Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004, 01:42 am
[politics, essay] Bacchus sepe visitans mulierum genus...

So, this guy brought suit in NJ that "Ladies' Nights" -- where bars offer discounts to women -- are discriminatory against men.

Now, before commenting futher, let me, in the spirit of full disclosure, point out that there may, in fact, be no North American less qualified than I to speak on any topic involving bars and the mating rites therein. I think I've been in a bar, once. A couple times I've been in self-styled "pubs" and a bunch of times to "music clubs" which had bars in them. But I've certainly never been in a bar with the intention of meeting strangers there, to consider as potential mates. Indeed, I can't think of anything else less compatible with my: sexual tastes, socio-economic class mores, subcultural mores, psychological constitution, respiratory allergies (at least locally bars are now smoke-free), musical tastes, idea of a good time and good old fashioned Yankee-Thrift-based sense of how much is reasonable to pay for a beer.

But, let's be serious: this is the internet, so I'm hardly going to let that stop me from shooting my mouth off. Now where was I? Oh, right....

I confess to a certain astonishment that a man would bring such a suit. As I understand it (admittedly not terribly far) the whole points of a Ladies' Night are first to balance the genders (by inducing more women to patronise the establishment) for the benefit of the men who are seeking women, and secondly, to make it more affordable for those men to engage in the lekking behavior of demonstrating his genetic superiority over other male by bringing the female beverages laced with ethanol. Complaining about the institution seems a bit like slaying the goose that layed the golden egg.

But that said, the plaintiff was, in fact, right. The institution of Ladies' Nights was, indeed, sexist, and discriminatory against men.

The problem is that the custom of Ladies' Nights was an attempt, insofar as the second of my above purposes is true, to help men deal with a different, less tractable, issue of sexism. That sexism is in the mating "scripts" which heterosexual women are bringing to the mating game, and imposing on men.

But you can't sue women for expecting men to buy them drinks as part of courtship.

This case has become the focal point for a lot of commentary; it has occasioned a lot of men coming forward to complain about the double standard, wherein women expect them to bankroll the entire courtship. They're right. It does suck for them to be treated that way. Women treating men like walking paychecks is precisely as wrong as men treating a women as walking cunts. And wrong in precisely the same way and for precisely the same reason.

As silly as this court case may sound, it was a success in the way that matters: it got people talking about the custom and the double-standard behind it, and that's the only way it will ever change. To that patron of the Coastline nightclub, I raise my glass in toast.

So this is a reminder to all my hetero-hopeful sisters out there: if you want equality, that means equality of responsibilities, as well as equality of rights. There's nothing wrong with liking being treated from time to time. In fact what I'm saying is it's wonderful to be treated -- which is why men should be able to enjoy it, too! Instead of waiting around for men to impress you, have some ovaries, be a woman and buy a man a drink. Take a man out for dinner. Buy him flowers. Take him out for a drive in your car. Make arrangements for a date -- buy the tickets, make the reservations -- and be the one to say, "I'll take care of it all; it's all set."

It's a lot easier to command a man's respect, both within the bedroom and without, if you're not some pathetic mooch. If you want to be treated like an equal, start by acting like one.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 01:40 am (UTC)
redaxe

Yes, Ladies' Night is discriminatory. It is in fact a fairly good analogy to affirmative action -- an attempt to fix symptoms (an imbalance toward male bar attendance) without fixing the underlying causes (bars are often unpleasant places for women to be).

It is interesting, though, that apparently many people like (or are used to?) this set of circumstances; the New Jersey Assembly voted 78-0 for a bill that specifically restores the legality of Ladies' Night.

ISTR some big-name blogger recently trying to argue that courtship -- okay, sex, at least -- shouldn't be modeled economically, and I have to disagree. Economics is exactly the model that applies, but the validity of the model depends, as always, on the postulates, assumptions, and variables selected.

Which brings me to: It's a lot easier to command a man's respect, both within the bedroom and without, if you're not some pathetic mooch. If you want to be treated like an equal, start by acting like one.

I agree. Even more than that, it's not just financial contributions that men are searching for. I have known too many women (since we're speaking of them; men do this, too) who insist on the relationship being about their interests, likes, and dislikes (possibly excluding the confines of the bedroom), and who make no effort to explore and share the man's interests. (None, or none that I can bring to mind, of my female friends, do this. I suspect strongly that there's a causal relationship there :-)

Finally, I'll just note that the man in New Jersey was not the first to challenge the institution. The cbsnews.com story notes at least four other states that have made determinations about Ladies' Night; two have declared it discriminatory, and two have bought the spin that it's a pitch to women at no substantive cost to men. It's good to have an issue we can sink our teeth into that might do good whichever way it's settled.
(Deleted comment)

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 10:27 am (UTC)
learnedax

(Gah. That userpic generator is too confusing. On first pass I parsed this comment as <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/allpics.bml?user=umbran>umbran</a>'s.) I might be misunderstanding you, but are you using affirmative action as an example of an obviously good discrimination? There's enough ambiguity about whether AA is blessing or curse that I would be more careful using it for this argument.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 12:54 pm (UTC)
redaxe

I don't know about metahacker, but I was carefully NOT judging either Ladies' Night nor AA as a complete success, nor an unmixed blessing. Each has its flaws, but each serves a demonstrably good purpose.

My feeling is that each needs to have the root inequities addressed, and then they can be permitted to wither, or be removed.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 03:03 pm (UTC)
siderea

I agree with redaxe but disagree with you:

Ladies' Night --> affirmative action for women in bars.

The analogy is not that direct. AA is a program to benefit minorities. Ladies ' Nights may or may not benefit a minority (in this case women) but that is not their primary purpose. The intended beneficiary is the bar itself which is attempting to earn more money.

In fact, insofar as LNs are a means to encourage women to go to bars (which was point 1 in my list of 2, and the one I didn't address) it's a much purer example of differential pricing where two populations are offered two difference prices, reflecting their differing demands for a product. Since the demand among men for drinks-in-bars is higher than the demand among women, the price point for men is higher than women are willing to pay. To the vendor, it therefore makes sense to attempt to offer women a price in accord with women's demand for drinks-in-bars; this allows them to have their cake and eat it too.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 07:00 am (UTC)
herooftheage

It's a lot easier to command a man's respect, both within the bedroom and without, if you're not some pathetic mooch. If you want to be treated like an equal, start by acting like one.

Not so clear-cut. One reason men pay for women's drinks/dinners on dates is because the woman is in demand, and can get a pretty good deal elsewhere. In such a system, guys don't view it as the lady being a pathetic mooch, but competing for a valuable resource.

Moreover, there's utility of money considerations. We live in a society where women still earn less than men on average. Anytime that's true, the marginal value of a dollar is going to be smaller for the man than for the woman, and in that sense, it is cheaper for the man to pay. This reason wouldn't apply in situations where the income is commensurate, of course.

And there is of course the evolutionary problem, which is faced by all species where the female bears the large cost of childbearing. One of the many strategies used to equal things out if for the female to get payment up front - male birds building nests being an example of that. I suspect a fair bit of our courtship ritual has that in it, and that our genes haven't caught up with our social awareness. One result of that is that I'd expect "the man pays" strategy to be successful for a long time to come, even if lots of people abandon it.



Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 10:43 am (UTC)
learnedax

The argument of unequal wage had occurred to me as well. I believe both it and the supply-demand equation derive directly from longlived evolved systems. However, those reasons are not particularly relevant. There is no genetic imperative for equality, any more than there is for sex without procreation. If our lives are to include pursuits beyond survival, we must construct societal codes with more than survival in mind.

Furthermore, we cannot judge tradition to be in and of itself a sound reason for maintaining the status quo. Interpersonal equality has to begin with the individual, or it has no place from which to spread to society as a whole.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 11:13 am (UTC)
herooftheage

There is no genetic imperative for equality, any more than there is for sex without procreation.

There's certainly plenty of imperative for sex without procreation - creating stronger tribal bonds, for example. If living in a communtity is a genetic plus, then behavior that fosters that is going to be a genetic plus too.

Is there a genetic imperative for equality? Mating strategies all over the animal kingdom pretty specifically are designed to address the inequality of the female bearing the costs of child birth, and often then being stuck with the offspring. Whether that gets you equality in the sense a modern American would mean, I don't know.

Furthermore, we cannot judge tradition to be in and of itself a sound reason for maintaining the status quo.

No, but it is an indicator that one should look carefully. The status quo got to be that way for a reason, and working against it when the reasons for it being there are sound would be a waste of time.

Behavior across a genome generally follows a mixed strategy of all the viable options being represented in a rough proportion to their expected payoffs. In such a system, I would expect the "men pay for dates" strategy to be represented for a good long time, because the underlying basis for it - the inequality of bearing children - is not going to go away anytime soon.

I wonder if there'd be any big huzzah over the argument if it wasn't specifically dating. By way of example, I throw a lot more parties than Tibicen does, and I invite her to pretty much all of them. Now part of that may be because I'm better set up for it, and part of it may be that I am more of a party throwing disposition than her, but I can assure you, I don't think of her as any sort of a mooch for coming to them, and then not reciprocating: moreover, I'd find the idea that someone might think that to be nonsense.

Is there any big difference between the party case and the date case? (And if you like, feel free to presume I threw the party in the hopes of making T. think I'm a wonderful enough guy to mate with - in a general sense, that wouldn't be all that wrong.)

If our lives are to include pursuits beyond survival, we must construct societal codes with more than survival in mind.

Why? It seems to me that societal codes are just the place to be storing our practices about survival, and personal interactions are the place where we can expand on that. I think the problem with trying to get more out of societal codes than that is that your higher pursuit is my imposition; and survival of our genes is more or less the common ground we can agree on.


Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 07:16 am (UTC)
coraline

it's weird... i'm not sure i've ever had a boy pay for me on a date. possibly with my first boyfriend in highschool, but only a few times. maybe this has to do with never having "dated" -- i've always had guy friends and then at some point, if we started being romantically involved, why would they start paying for my dinner when we were going out to dinner like always?

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 07:53 am (UTC)
redaxe

And so naturally I stumble on this after commenting. (Mark Morford's 6/18/04 column, In Defense of Sluts. Really, it's got stuff relevant to this discussion in it. But I can't discuss now; we have ignition.)

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 10:16 am (UTC)
learnedax

Whoa - I think I agree with you on all points. Not sure that's ever happened before.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 08:44 pm (UTC)
siderea

One of us must be wrong then. :)

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 08:34 pm (UTC)
xystum: Surely you're joking

If you believe Richard Feynman, it's more effective not to buy drinks for women. If you do they think you're a drink-buying patsy. Perhaps this is what the bars are taking to heart with Ladies Night -- women won't get any drinks otherwise.

Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 08:43 pm (UTC)
siderea: Re: Surely you're joking

Perhaps this is what the bars are taking to heart with Ladies Night -- women won't get any drinks otherwise.

Do bars (that is their owners) have a motivation to make sure women get drinks? To sell the women drinks, yes. But is there a motivation for keeping them in liquor?

Your Feynman quote touches on something important: the interplay of men buying or not buying drinks for and meeting or not meeting the expectations of women, is more complicated, and engages in more game-theoretics, than merely an idealized exchange of economic value. Willingness (or lack thereof) to participate in the institution communicates information (e.g. "I am not a drink-buying patsy") making the behavior semiotically rich.


Mon, Jun. 21st, 2004 09:27 pm (UTC)
xystum: Re: Surely you're joking

I hope everyone realized the tongue-in-cheekiness of my comment.

But I cannot resist a wild chain of speculation apropos game theoretics and drinks. There's a "meta payoff" to giving women free drinks. Namely, men want to be in bars with lots of women, primarily for the (unrealized, sublimated, or maybe quite real) chance to get laid. They'll go back again and again like Pavlov's dog, possibly even salivating a little. They'll buy drinks. There you go. Free drinks for women -> more men buying more drinks = value for bar owner.

Willingness (or lack thereof) to participate in the institution communicates information (e.g. "I am not a drink-buying patsy") making the behavior semiotically rich.

True dat. Booze has a hell of a lot of signs associated with it.

Tue, Jun. 22nd, 2004 10:55 am (UTC)
wetdryvac: Meat market, any market - volunteers?

Since some days I'm incapable of writing a comment in less than 4300 characters, the comment has ended up over at my own page in its entirety. If you’re just browsing here yourself and want to reply, please, reply to this here – not on my pages – so that Siderea can see what’s being said.

Meanwhile, Siderea - apologies. One day I'll learn to write commentary of reasonable length.

Tue, Jun. 22nd, 2004 09:01 pm (UTC)
xystum: Re: Meat market, any market - volunteers?

Thanks for your comments wetdryvac. An adequate response to your 4300 words would be another 4300 words, which I'm afraid I can't muster. But I did feel like saying one thing.

While I agree with siderea that there's value to surfacing an issue like this, and I feel equally disgusted that a ploy as archaic as ladies night still works today, I nevertheless wonder whether abolishing it or setting up an equivalent gentleman's night isn't analgesic (I wonder if I could write a 4300 word run on sentence). In other words, treating the symptoms and not the problem. Like moves to change English to eliminate or change words. These things seem quixotic to me, jousting windmills while the dragons go on burninating the peasants unaffected.

Perhaps that's where the frustration over this topic comes from: frustration of the ability to change people's behavior in a way we feel is beneficial. Women are treated like objects still, in many contexts; that fact is utilized to manipulate all of us. Which sucks, but that's how it is and it would seem many people like it that way. Frustrating indeed, these dehydrated horses.

Just a little thought. Peace.

Wed, Jun. 23rd, 2004 01:43 am (UTC)
wetdryvac: Re: Meat market, any market - volunteers?

Agreed. Neither abolishment of Lady's night nor addition of Gentleman's night solves anything. Instead, it's a weak start at best, and the whole thing boils down to people treating people as product, as usable commodity.

That situation cannot be changed without radical reassessment of how we raise kids and choose to behave ourselves - I was raised to use people, and to be a product myself. I find it very difficult to step outside the first - I have to consciously make myself not use people. Getting away from the second very often comes down to threat for me, be it intimidation, or actual damage to another person. I'm aware of being almost pathologically dominant and aggressive, even in situations where I don't need to be, and changing that is probably the most difficult challenge I've faced.

I believe one of the best ways to teach kids how not to grow up to be users is to train them, step by step, in how to be the most efficient predator possible - and at each step of the training process, make sure they understand why predation is so very wrong. Power over others is addictive, as is the safety of having a protector. In raising our kids, I think it's necessary to empower them as their own protectors, and to instill the knowledge that - like a gun or a knife - is something to be used ever so carefully.

The necessary fundamental shift is one I'm not sure the human species can carry off. I don't have enough faith in us to say we'll ever be able to look at someone and see another person. Even in the most personal of relationships, most people I look at are engaged in some form of usury behavior and power struggle.

I'm not saying that looking at someone and reacting as we're biologically designed to is stupid - that layer is nice, lovely in a trusting environment - but without being superseded by personhood, without being backed by the choice to empower another rather than feed upon them, the system of human interaction fails. I suggest that both consciously and unconsciously humans continue to be self serving at the expense of other humans - and that change has to be a matter of both conscious choice and education.

Today I won't manipulate people if I can avoid it. If bad things happen, I'll try to be gentle rather than progressively breaking joints. Beyond that, I may even consider being civil to people - but that still feels like a lie. I don't like what I see people doing, and the disgust usually shows through. Still, it's worth the effort, if only as the chance to make sure my little one doesn't start out thinking they're product or predator. If I teach by word alone, and not by example, of what use am I?

Indeed, while I've learned to love power a very great deal, I am happiest - as I expect everyone is - around people I trust. It's a pretty simple thing, that, and easily instilled. It's the codification of interaction with people I don't know and trust that throws me every time, and the knowledge that there really are people out there hunting for money, meat, and satiation of self - nothing else.

Until everyone agrees not to use people in self interest, I guess I'll settle for protecting me and mine, and seeking to do as little harm as possible.

Wed, Jun. 23rd, 2004 08:34 am (UTC)
sethg_prime

Various bar owners have figured out that there's an easy way to satisfy the business goal behind "Ladies' Night" without running afoul of discrimination laws: replace it with "Skirt Night", where anyone wearing a skirt, male or female, gets discounted booze.

(PS: Every time I come across a recent Technology Review, I flip to the alumni pages in the back, just to confirm that nobody I knew when I was an undergraduate would be lame enough to admit their whereabouts to the Alumni Association. And then, two clicks away from my LJ friends page, there's a familiar name ... Greetings!)

Tue, Jun. 29th, 2004 06:05 pm (UTC)
siderea

Hey there! (Sorry, got behind for obvious reasons.)

HEY! I think I still have a book of yours! About the culture of the Deaf community. If I do, how best should I get it to you?